Comments on: Scared of the Dark? http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/ Working together for standards Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:19:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Joppe Houpt http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/comment-page-1/#comment-23264 Joppe Houpt Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:29:47 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/#comment-23264 @John: Agree with you. @John:

Agree with you.

]]> By: John, web developer http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/comment-page-1/#comment-3801 John, web developer Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:35:15 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/#comment-3801 I hope that the legislative system can answer all the questions about the rights of the blind. And we'll just have to follow. Cause if we start debating and trying to figure out which's the right attitude we won't have time for our main job. I hope that the legislative system can answer all the questions about the rights of the blind. And we’ll just have to follow. Cause if we start debating and trying to figure out which’s the right attitude we won’t have time for our main job.

]]> By: Bruce Lawson’s personal site   : Ajax, accessibility and assistive technology http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/comment-page-1/#comment-1121 Bruce Lawson’s personal site   : Ajax, accessibility and assistive technology Wed, 24 May 2006 06:31:35 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/#comment-1121 [...] In a comment on a WaSP post calling for vendors to support Ajax, Dan Champion writes, A standard for ajax/whatever needs to be produced and widely adopted before we can expect AT vendors to invest in supporting it fully. In the meantime the responsibility falls squarely on developers to make sure that they accommodate users of ATs. (Source) [...] [...] In a comment on a WaSP post calling for vendors to support Ajax, Dan Champion writes, A standard for ajax/whatever needs to be produced and widely adopted before we can expect AT vendors to invest in supporting it fully. In the meantime the responsibility falls squarely on developers to make sure that they accommodate users of ATs. (Source) [...]

]]> By: Jim Mannion http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/comment-page-1/#comment-845 Jim Mannion Fri, 12 May 2006 18:32:20 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/#comment-845 In response to “A blind person will never be able to drive a car”. Yes this is true and I agree with the person that asked the question "should blind people be banned from public transportation?" I would also like to add that blowing off the issue as blind people will never be able to do certain things as a general excuse is extremely inconsiderat and selfish at the very least. If you as the author of this comment were to so unfortunately lose your vision tomorrow would you still be able to honestly be able to support such a selfish inconsiderate point of view? I truely think it is a constructive question. The web is a way of interacting with the world's welth of information and services. Accessing this technology can make the difference in being educated, being employable, and much more. For technological means for this to be accessible not to be explored and utilized just because the people in a position to do that are not impacted by it so they don't care is a completely inconsiderate and self centered mind set and who knows, possibly people thinking they are not impacted so who cares may find themselves in very different circumstances some day. I do not wish it on anyone, but does anyone really know what their future holds? I truely hope the matter will be addressed and not blown off because people don't see a reason to care. In response to “A blind person will never be able to drive a car”. Yes this is true and I agree with the person that asked the question “should blind people be banned from public transportation?” I would also like to add that blowing off the issue as blind people will never be able to do certain things as a general excuse is extremely inconsiderat and selfish at the very least. If you as the author of this comment were to so unfortunately lose your vision tomorrow would you still be able to honestly be able to support such a selfish inconsiderate point of view? I truely think it is a constructive question. The web is a way of interacting with the world’s welth of information and services. Accessing this technology can make the difference in being educated, being employable, and much more. For technological means for this to be accessible not to be explored and utilized just because the people in a position to do that are not impacted by it so they don’t care is a completely inconsiderate and self centered mind set and who knows, possibly people thinking they are not impacted so who cares may find themselves in very different circumstances some day. I do not wish it on anyone, but does anyone really know what their future holds? I truely hope the matter will be addressed and not blown off because people don’t see a reason to care.

]]> By: Robin Massart http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/comment-page-1/#comment-796 Robin Massart Thu, 11 May 2006 09:08:06 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/#comment-796 In fact HTML is an inherently accessible medium. The problem with accessibility is the poor markup quality of most web sites and the fact that it took a good ten years to figure out what sort of medium the web actually is. This is something most graphic designers couldn't get their heads round. In a sense they hijacked the web for their own needs. Most professional web designers now know how to seperate content from design. But the problem is that most web pages are by hobbyists or office admins with no formal training. These users shouldn't have to care about accessibility and valid markup. The tools they use should take care of this for them. Sadly they don't. For me this is the real problem with accessibility at the moment. AJAX is simply muddying the waters again. For apps such as Google maps or calendaring there is a clear case for AJAX. For a bog standard website - forget it. In fact HTML is an inherently accessible medium. The problem with accessibility is the poor markup quality of most web sites and the fact that it took a good ten years to figure out what sort of medium the web actually is. This is something most graphic designers couldn’t get their heads round. In a sense they hijacked the web for their own needs.

Most professional web designers now know how to seperate content from design. But the problem is that most web pages are by hobbyists or office admins with no formal training. These users shouldn’t have to care about accessibility and valid markup. The tools they use should take care of this for them. Sadly they don’t. For me this is the real problem with accessibility at the moment.

AJAX is simply muddying the waters again. For apps such as Google maps or calendaring there is a clear case for AJAX. For a bog standard website – forget it.

]]> By: bruce http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/comment-page-1/#comment-794 bruce Thu, 11 May 2006 07:55:57 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/#comment-794 "A blind person will never be able to drive a car". Absolutely true. But a false analogy. Do you believe that blind people should be banned from getting on buses and trains? “A blind person will never be able to drive a car”. Absolutely true. But a false analogy. Do you believe that blind people should be banned from getting on buses and trains?

]]> By: Ton v. Lankveld http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/comment-page-1/#comment-793 Ton v. Lankveld Thu, 11 May 2006 07:52:03 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/#comment-793 Rob - Yes, the Web has to be accessible. If you know how, it is easy. Just spend 3 - 5% extra time on it. If it was that easy to change a car so that a blind person could drive, there would be a law in now time. To make your sites accessible is not only the right thing to do, it is also the proffessional thing to do. Rob – Yes, the Web has to be accessible. If you know how, it is easy. Just spend 3 – 5% extra time on it.

If it was that easy to change a car so that a blind person could drive, there would be a law in now time.

To make your sites accessible is not only the right thing to do, it is also the proffessional thing to do.

]]> By: Rob Sutherland http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/comment-page-1/#comment-785 Rob Sutherland Thu, 11 May 2006 01:12:30 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/#comment-785 I agree that the Web has to be accessible. It must. But it isn't scary because people don't "know how to interact with it" Come on, when the Web was created no one knew what a hyperlink was they had to learn. Imagine that. Was the Web scary? no. Was it new and different? yes. While Google Calendar - a very ajax web app - isn't the most accessible system - probably not accessible at all. But it wasn't scary when I used it. Did I have to adjust to it? Sure. Is it perfect? Nope. But it isn't scary. Does everything have to be accessible? Is that an absolute requirement? A blind person will never be able to drive a car. I agree that the Web has to be accessible. It must. But it isn’t scary because people don’t “know how to interact with it”

Come on, when the Web was created no one knew what a hyperlink was they had to learn. Imagine that. Was the Web scary? no. Was it new and different? yes.

While Google Calendar – a very ajax web app – isn’t the most accessible system – probably not accessible at all. But it wasn’t scary when I used it. Did I have to adjust to it? Sure. Is it perfect? Nope.

But it isn’t scary.

Does everything have to be accessible? Is that an absolute requirement? A blind person will never be able to drive a car.

]]> By: Lachlan Hunt http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/comment-page-1/#comment-782 Lachlan Hunt Wed, 10 May 2006 22:50:43 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/#comment-782 I absolutely agree. While web developers do have a resoponsibility to ensure they create accessible pages, there really does need to be significantly more effort from the UA vendors to make tools that actually work. AT vendors need to make sure they're tools work with not only scripted applications, but support proper semantic markup better (e.g. most don't support implicit association with form controls nested within label elements, and still require the for attribute) and don't choke on CSS designed and written for screen media (e.g. display: none; and visibility: hidden; are effectively unusable because of them, that's why we need to hack it with the off-left technique). I absolutely agree. While web developers do have a resoponsibility to ensure they create accessible pages, there really does need to be significantly more effort from the UA vendors to make tools that actually work.

AT vendors need to make sure they’re tools work with not only scripted applications, but support proper semantic markup better (e.g. most don’t support implicit association with form controls nested within label elements, and still require the for attribute) and don’t choke on CSS designed and written for screen media (e.g. display: none; and visibility: hidden; are effectively unusable because of them, that’s why we need to hack it with the off-left technique).

]]> By: Steve Tucker http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/comment-page-1/#comment-774 Steve Tucker Wed, 10 May 2006 19:16:57 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/05/10/scared-of-the-dark/#comment-774 Just as the push for accessibility finally seems to have reached the much overdue level where disabled users such as the blind are able to surf unhindered, another hurdle in the form of Ajax approaches to get in the way once more. I do not personally have a problem with Ajax techniques, nor the changing of web pages without page refresh. However, like everything else, it is how we adopt and employ this new technology in practice. Lets hope we learn from our non-standard mistakes of yesteryear and put a set of guidelines in place early, before bad habits are made... Just as the push for accessibility finally seems to have reached the much overdue level where disabled users such as the blind are able to surf unhindered, another hurdle in the form of Ajax approaches to get in the way once more. I do not personally have a problem with Ajax techniques, nor the changing of web pages without page refresh. However, like everything else, it is how we adopt and employ this new technology in practice. Lets hope we learn from our non-standard mistakes of yesteryear and put a set of guidelines in place early, before bad habits are made…

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