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	<title>Comments on: UK government accessibility consultation</title>
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	<link>http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/</link>
	<description>Working together for standards</description>
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		<title>By: Nick B</title>
		<link>http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/comment-page-1/#comment-66190</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/#comment-66190</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad the UK Government are at least saying something. I try to make external providers provide accessible Web content, but I have trouble from departments who trample over accessibility shouting &quot;everyone else is doing it, why can&#039;t we&quot;.

One external design agency actually charged extra to make a site accessible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad the UK Government are at least saying something. I try to make external providers provide accessible Web content, but I have trouble from departments who trample over accessibility shouting &#8220;everyone else is doing it, why can&#8217;t we&#8221;.</p>
<p>One external design agency actually charged extra to make a site accessible.</p>
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		<title>By: Alastair Revell</title>
		<link>http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/comment-page-1/#comment-64661</link>
		<dc:creator>Alastair Revell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/#comment-64661</guid>
		<description>The idea that UK government web sites might be withdrawn from the .gov.uk name space sparked &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.rrs.co.uk/revella/PermaLink,guid,7591144b-fa3b-4e00-b631-7ddc9864df4d.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;an article on my blog&lt;/a&gt; concerning UK web sites in general and their compliance with existing UK legislation.

What if UK web sites could be withdrawn from the .co.uk name space for failing to comply with UK legislation (such as the Disability Discrimination Act 2005)?


Alastair Revell
Managing Consultant
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.rrs.co.uk&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Revell Research Systems&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea that UK government web sites might be withdrawn from the .gov.uk name space sparked <a href="http://blogs.rrs.co.uk/revella/PermaLink,guid,7591144b-fa3b-4e00-b631-7ddc9864df4d.aspx" rel="nofollow">an article on my blog</a> concerning UK web sites in general and their compliance with existing UK legislation.</p>
<p>What if UK web sites could be withdrawn from the .co.uk name space for failing to comply with UK legislation (such as the Disability Discrimination Act 2005)?</p>
<p>Alastair Revell<br />
Managing Consultant<br />
<a href="http://www.rrs.co.uk" rel="nofollow">Revell Research Systems</a></p>
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		<title>By: Life Path</title>
		<link>http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/comment-page-1/#comment-63813</link>
		<dc:creator>Life Path</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/#comment-63813</guid>
		<description>Yeah I agreew with you Chris M... Thanks for sharing</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah I agreew with you Chris M&#8230; Thanks for sharing</p>
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		<title>By: ARES</title>
		<link>http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/comment-page-1/#comment-63812</link>
		<dc:creator>ARES</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:30:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/#comment-63812</guid>
		<description>This will be a very good step in the right direction!!! I hope ppl will understand that!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This will be a very good step in the right direction!!! I hope ppl will understand that!</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Warren</title>
		<link>http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/comment-page-1/#comment-60028</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Warren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/#comment-60028</guid>
		<description>The standards for the underlying engineering coding (HTML, XHTML &amp; CSS) are robust and universally accepted. So there really is no excuse for someone who is being paid money to build a website not to build it with valid code. Similarly if a CMS produces invalid code then either the user needs to learn how to use the CMS properly or the CMS vendor needs to fix his product.

Guidelines such as WAIG are guidelines not standards and the saying about being &quot;for the guidance of the wise and the obedience of fools&quot; is very apt here. The crucial issue is does the website work properly in the real world of browsers and assistive software. This requires testing with real users. 

Nearly all current websites can be made accessible without changing the present &quot;look and feel&quot;. For the few (usually Flash heavy) sites where this is a real problem there is always the option of HTML alternatives. So the awkward client can still have his, or her, &quot;experimental&quot; design whilst you quietly make it as accessible as possible and provide alternatives where not possible.

I appreciate that the language and structure of the guidelines, as laid out on the W3C website, is not easy reading. I also appreciate that some people are not fully happy with the individual priorities awarded to certain issues. However the underlying concept is vital if we genuinely believe in an inclusive society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The standards for the underlying engineering coding (HTML, XHTML &amp; CSS) are robust and universally accepted. So there really is no excuse for someone who is being paid money to build a website not to build it with valid code. Similarly if a CMS produces invalid code then either the user needs to learn how to use the CMS properly or the CMS vendor needs to fix his product.</p>
<p>Guidelines such as WAIG are guidelines not standards and the saying about being &#8220;for the guidance of the wise and the obedience of fools&#8221; is very apt here. The crucial issue is does the website work properly in the real world of browsers and assistive software. This requires testing with real users. </p>
<p>Nearly all current websites can be made accessible without changing the present &#8220;look and feel&#8221;. For the few (usually Flash heavy) sites where this is a real problem there is always the option of HTML alternatives. So the awkward client can still have his, or her, &#8220;experimental&#8221; design whilst you quietly make it as accessible as possible and provide alternatives where not possible.</p>
<p>I appreciate that the language and structure of the guidelines, as laid out on the W3C website, is not easy reading. I also appreciate that some people are not fully happy with the individual priorities awarded to certain issues. However the underlying concept is vital if we genuinely believe in an inclusive society.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Morton</title>
		<link>http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/comment-page-1/#comment-59696</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Morton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/#comment-59696</guid>
		<description>@Chris M - you are spot on when you say that we need CSS Zen Gardens to become accessible. It wouldn&#039;t be that difficult either because most of the designs fail accessibility guidelines because of colour contrast and using images to replace text. 

Trying to think about your penultimate point referencing @vicky peterson. Sounds plausible but I&#039;m not entirely convinced. If you are talking about passing the guidelines (which I admit is only an assumption on my part) then what about a page that passes all your criteria, but doesn&#039;t have a site map/table of contents,  or navigation different from other pages on the site, or that has a flickering decorative image, need I go on?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Chris M &#8211; you are spot on when you say that we need CSS Zen Gardens to become accessible. It wouldn&#8217;t be that difficult either because most of the designs fail accessibility guidelines because of colour contrast and using images to replace text. </p>
<p>Trying to think about your penultimate point referencing @vicky peterson. Sounds plausible but I&#8217;m not entirely convinced. If you are talking about passing the guidelines (which I admit is only an assumption on my part) then what about a page that passes all your criteria, but doesn&#8217;t have a site map/table of contents,  or navigation different from other pages on the site, or that has a flickering decorative image, need I go on?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Hubbers</title>
		<link>http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/comment-page-1/#comment-59379</link>
		<dc:creator>Hubbers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/#comment-59379</guid>
		<description>So the usual then. Lots of talk with no policing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the usual then. Lots of talk with no policing.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Chris M</title>
		<link>http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/comment-page-1/#comment-59268</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 00:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/#comment-59268</guid>
		<description>No offence but even the accessibility community recognise that WCAG is flawed and out of date. Why is it that government feel that the only effective manner in which to improve something is to get more consultation, create more documentation and get more pointless red tape.

Secondly not everyone agrees implicitly on just how semantic code should be. No Code, is 100% semantic.

Then there&#039;s the CMS, most modern CMS&#039;s (even the free ones) create pretty standard valid code. I wouldn&#039;t fancy being the poor mug who has to sift through every entry into the system to make sure that someone hasn&#039;t misused a list at some point, or written an entry that uses too confusing a grammar for dyslexics etc.

To top it WCAG 2.0 looks to be a piece of rubbish. Maybe its time to set standards for screen readers as well and to give web developers the tools to work with screen reader developers like JAWS to create sites that are easier for blind users and browser developments to account for the colour blind. There&#039;s such a wide range of disabilities to accommodate for and the current standards just don&#039;t cut it.

@Runescape: My sites compliant (though it is suffering rot from neglect) (checked by GAWDS)  as is one of my Clients. At that point though I ran off to the Corporate world of in house design. Where I was quickly told that Firefox users were none existent and WCAG was a myth. And this is a company that has over 6 billion in assets. So take a $2 million dollar project that flops after someone FINALLY takes notice of my head banging on the wall and the realisation that theres more then IE out there to be served and we have a new project starting with these targets in mind... Will it meet P2? Probably not but its a step in the right direction and you can only hit a director so hard.

@Autocrat: You are unfortunately correct, a lot of &quot;web design agencies&quot; don&#039;t have a clue about accessibility. Why? Because a lot of agencies (in my experience in dealing with loads of them in the last 14 months) are in fact print agencies that have been on a one day training course in HTML. I&#039;m always amazed if they produce a page that validates let alone meets P1.

@vicky petersen: Technically with CSS and a semantically coded page any design can be workable and still accessible (so long as you keep a decent contrast ratio). 

What we need is a CSS-Accessible-Zen-Gardens to show that it can be done, look good and still meet WCAG p1,p2 at a minimum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No offence but even the accessibility community recognise that WCAG is flawed and out of date. Why is it that government feel that the only effective manner in which to improve something is to get more consultation, create more documentation and get more pointless red tape.</p>
<p>Secondly not everyone agrees implicitly on just how semantic code should be. No Code, is 100% semantic.</p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s the CMS, most modern CMS&#8217;s (even the free ones) create pretty standard valid code. I wouldn&#8217;t fancy being the poor mug who has to sift through every entry into the system to make sure that someone hasn&#8217;t misused a list at some point, or written an entry that uses too confusing a grammar for dyslexics etc.</p>
<p>To top it WCAG 2.0 looks to be a piece of rubbish. Maybe its time to set standards for screen readers as well and to give web developers the tools to work with screen reader developers like JAWS to create sites that are easier for blind users and browser developments to account for the colour blind. There&#8217;s such a wide range of disabilities to accommodate for and the current standards just don&#8217;t cut it.</p>
<p>@Runescape: My sites compliant (though it is suffering rot from neglect) (checked by GAWDS)  as is one of my Clients. At that point though I ran off to the Corporate world of in house design. Where I was quickly told that Firefox users were none existent and WCAG was a myth. And this is a company that has over 6 billion in assets. So take a $2 million dollar project that flops after someone FINALLY takes notice of my head banging on the wall and the realisation that theres more then IE out there to be served and we have a new project starting with these targets in mind&#8230; Will it meet P2? Probably not but its a step in the right direction and you can only hit a director so hard.</p>
<p>@Autocrat: You are unfortunately correct, a lot of &#8220;web design agencies&#8221; don&#8217;t have a clue about accessibility. Why? Because a lot of agencies (in my experience in dealing with loads of them in the last 14 months) are in fact print agencies that have been on a one day training course in HTML. I&#8217;m always amazed if they produce a page that validates let alone meets P1.</p>
<p>@vicky petersen: Technically with CSS and a semantically coded page any design can be workable and still accessible (so long as you keep a decent contrast ratio). </p>
<p>What we need is a CSS-Accessible-Zen-Gardens to show that it can be done, look good and still meet WCAG p1,p2 at a minimum.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: newsworld</title>
		<link>http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/comment-page-1/#comment-59250</link>
		<dc:creator>newsworld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2007 07:33:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/#comment-59250</guid>
		<description>hmmzz really interesting. but i dont think dis will be a good step in the right deriction</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hmmzz really interesting. but i dont think dis will be a good step in the right deriction</p>
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		<title>By: Laura&#8217;s Notebook &#124; Technology for Non-profit Organisations, Social Media and Accessible Website Design &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Consultation on accessible government websites</title>
		<link>http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/comment-page-1/#comment-59247</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura&#8217;s Notebook &#124; Technology for Non-profit Organisations, Social Media and Accessible Website Design &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Consultation on accessible government websites</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2007 03:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webstandards.org/2007/11/04/uk-government-accessibility-consultation/#comment-59247</guid>
		<description>[...] the Web Standards Project.  Like this article? Share it!Diggdel.icio.usFacebookMa.gnoliaStumbleUponTechnorati     You may also like these related articles... Accessibility 2.0: UK newspaper websites featuredin studySuccess with the law on accessible websitesUsing Twitter for conferences and consultationFree tools to test your site for accessibilityLet your readers be in control: Text resizing [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Web Standards Project.  Like this article? Share it!Diggdel.icio.usFacebookMa.gnoliaStumbleUponTechnorati     You may also like these related articles&#8230; Accessibility 2.0: UK newspaper websites featuredin studySuccess with the law on accessible websitesUsing Twitter for conferences and consultationFree tools to test your site for accessibilityLet your readers be in control: Text resizing [...]</p>
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