Working together for standards The Web Standards Project

I had to pinch myself to check it’s not 1 April yet, because Amazon has always been an invalid, nested-table horror that was a poster-child for inaccessible images, but it seems to be true:

Amazon.com, the leading online retailer, and the National Federation of the Blind have entered into a cooperation agreement. Amazon.com will make its Web site and e-commerce platform fully accessible to the blind in collaboration with the Access Technology staff of the NFB. Full release

That’s very good news, but so far it receives only two cheers from me and my jacuzzi full of Accessibility Task Force colleagues.

What would raise the third cheer?

We urge Amazon to enhance their web accessiblity to all people with disabilities, not just blind people, and to use valid, semantic html to achieve it.

We’d be delighted to help.

Your Replies

#1 On March 31st, 2007 4:19 am Jon Tan replied:

+1 for a muted cheer. The intention should be applauded and encouraged so best wished to Amazon and the NFB in their efforts. This section of the press release will hopefully bear fruit around accessibility for all:

Amazon.com pledged its commitment to continue improving the accessibility of its Web site platform, while the NFB committed to… help further Amazon.com’s efforts.

I hope the complexity of the task won’t deter them from making some courageous decisions. Although disabled users — including the visually, motor and cognitively impaired — are often amazingly adept in working around difficult interfaces, I’d hope that Amazon don’t just try and apply accessibility band-aids to the existing carnage, but consider wholesale Standards-driven changes that will, in the long run, not only make the interface accessible to all but improve it for everyone else and also save Amazon money on the bottom line. Good luck to Amazon and the NFB.

#2 On March 31st, 2007 5:18 am runway airlines » Amazon.com to enhance its accessibility replied:

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#3 On March 31st, 2007 6:03 am Accessibility Matters To Amazon :: Unintentionally Blank replied:

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#4 On March 31st, 2007 7:38 am Isofarro replied:

I understand and appreciate the positive, if slightly muted response. The technical approach Amazon adopt will affect the accessibility level of the site, and by adopting web standards, Amazon can solve a number of accessibility problems that hinder more than visitors using screen readers.

Although, Amazon look to have overcome a much bigger difficulty – one of convincing the managers that accessibility is a problem that’s important to address. That is a tough fight, particularly when Amazon isn’t in the spotlight on the Target case. But what’s impressive is that Amazon, as a business organisation, are standing on a public stage acknowleging that the need to be improving the accessibility of their sites – that shows that someone in Amazon’s being doing a damn fine job in evangelising the need to be accessible.

And that is well worth acknowledging. The most difficult part of the accessibility battle has been won – overcoming the mostly ignorant views people have about disability. I’d like to meet Amazon’s version of Legal & General’s David Wilton.

#5 On March 31st, 2007 8:05 am peter pan replied:

“semantic html”

Oooooh..it’s always fun to read something like that. Since when was html semantic in any way? Yes, I know about the , , use of , etc. but that is not semantic markup in any way. Does an address not consist of more than one string; for instance a street, apt. number, city, etc. HTML is not about semantics, so it makes me laugh every time I hear usability or accessibility people talk about “semantic html”. :p

#6 On March 31st, 2007 9:52 am Joe Clark replied:

Why did the NFB deign to work on a site that is so clearly “recreational”? After all, they’ve opposed audio description on TV because blind people have better things to worry about than access to entertainment. (Somebody double-check the urban legend that the NFB also opposed the use of platform edge markings in subway stations, arguing that blind people should have the same right as sighted people to fall onto subway tracks.)

#7 On March 31st, 2007 12:44 pm John Puddifoot replied:

Bravo Amazon and not just aiming for a website that ticks an automated validator. Actually sitting down with the National Federation of the Blind to make sure it works.

As you say, shame the accessibility aims generally seem to stop at accommodating blind users but it’s one giant leap forward!

Will be interesting to see how this affects/is effected by Amazon’s network of developers connecting through the API too (if at all).

#8 On March 31st, 2007 2:08 pm Dan replied:

> HTML is not about semantics, so it makes me laugh every time I hear usability
> or accessibility people talk about “semantic html”. :p

It is so! Your use of emphasis is semantic proof that you are a horse’s ass.

#9 On April 1st, 2007 5:06 am peter pan replied:

Your use of emphasis is semantic proof that you are a horse’s ass

Sorry for not reading the “Reply Guidelines” before posting. It was not emphasized text, but supposed to be a list of HTML tags there as in “Yes, I know about the address, cite, use of em, etc.”, since I assumed that the web app. here would escape HTML tags from the input.

Now to the point of this reply:
I guess what’s really sorry is that you are the one being a horse’s ass (juding by your fantastic argument) do not understand the semantics of my post; i.e. the meaning conveyed in the information displayed on your screen.

#10 On April 1st, 2007 5:13 am peter pan replied:

And just in case I need to spell it out for you using the kind of argument you seem to understand:

HTML is not about semantics, so it makes me laugh every time I hear usability
or accessibility people talk about “semantic html”. :p

It is so!

Is not!

Try to read a HTM for Dummies or something, or read the DTD (incl. XHTML) if you feel like it; HTML is layout-markup, not semantic markup. To cite myself (my first comment):

Does an address not consist of more than one string; for instance a street, apt. number, city, etc..

How is HTMLs address-element semantic?

#11 On April 1st, 2007 7:07 am WaSP Member faruk replied:

Gentlemen, please keep the debate civil or we’ll be forced to moderate your comments.

Thanks for your cooperation.

#12 On April 1st, 2007 12:24 pm Dan replied:

Apologies, apologies. The “Alcohol lock” on my keyboard is playing up again.

Peter Pan – of course HTML is not a semantic language in itself, but it does add semantic context to the language it is conveying to the user, especially when that user cannot see the rendered output. Even the address element aids such users in understanding what the author is trying to convey, despite its obvious and well-documented shortcomings.

I’m sure you understood what Bruce was trying to convey by his use of the term “semantic HTML”. What a pity though that you ignored the good news that Amazon is engaging with the NFB.

My regards to Tinkerbell.

#13 On April 2nd, 2007 2:41 pm Mike Cherim replied:

I’ll reserve my cheer for after the fact. If they go through the site and add “Spacer Gif” as alt text to the alt attributes of table layout images I won’t be surprised nor will I be impressed. I say this because I see this sort of thing a lot. Some large site makes a so-called effort to make their site accessible only to see they’ve added alt=”Logo” and what not to the various images. They go through the motions, but yet they seem to be clueless as to what’s really needed from the disabled user’s perspective.

I do echo the sentiment that this effort should include all users, not just provisions for the blind, but if they do well for blind users, they will inherently make the site better for others. For now I’ll wait and see.

On the optimistic side, if they do a good job and make informed decisions, they may very well pave the way for others. Thus, let’s hope they do it right.

#14 On April 3rd, 2007 9:07 am Robert Wellock replied:

Well, I’ll wait and see what they manage to achieve talk is good but doing is better.

#15 On April 8th, 2007 2:57 pm Avasilcai Daniel replied:

That will be something.
I don’t get it, they are big, ok but if there are accessibility problems they lose a lot of important clients. Maybe a person with disablity problem coud buy 1000% more then me as a normal person, so why they are not interesting in making websites accessible & usable. Who knows, maybe there ata the top level, is a manager wich have no ideea about how the web sites are build, maybe he use only IE 5 or 6 an have high internet conection because he can afford… Anyway, Amazon is only one big exemple, there are more in this situation.

#16 On April 10th, 2007 2:01 am Asbjørn Ulsberg replied:

I’ll also reserve my cheer and applause until after I’ve seen the result. I’ll say I’m positive to read about the change of winds and that they acknowledge the fact that accessibility is important, but it does not seem like they’ve fully and truly “got it” yet. Perhaps they have and that the press release doesn’t reflect it appropriately; that is often the case when technical mumbo jumbo is supposed to be explained in layman terms. Let’s hope that’s the case here as well!

#17 On April 19th, 2007 3:49 am Jim replied:

Your use of emphasis is semantic proof that you are a horse’s ass

Appearing on a tee-shirt near you soon.

#18 On May 7th, 2007 5:27 pm börsenspiel replied:

I’m sure you understood what Bruce was trying to convey by his use of the term “semantic HTML”. What a pity though that you ignored the good news that Amazon is engaging with the NFB.

#19 On May 14th, 2007 6:08 am Darek replied:

HTML is not about semantics. HTML is layout-markup, not semantic markup.

#20 On May 14th, 2007 7:19 am Severin Kurpiers replied:

This is a very interesting news and the results of this project seem to be of a great importance. I guess that many others will watch closely the efforts of Amazon.com and will consider them in making their own decisions about enhancing the web accessibility to people with disabilities.

#21 On May 14th, 2007 8:57 am Darek replied:

Sorry, of course the discussion is about Amazon.com to enhance its
web accessibility to the blind people and not about HTML. I think
that Amazon.com is doing the right thing and will accomplish its
goal. And I hope that it will have many followers.
Regards

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